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(0:00) Hello and welcome to the Catholic Torch Podcast, Episode 14. We’ll start out with prayer.
We will be praying The Memorare.
In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of Virgins and Mother. To thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy, hear and answer me. Amen.
In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Today’s episode is brought to you (0:50) by Holy Queen Handmade.
Anything that I say that is true and good and beautiful belongs to the (0:58) honor and glory of our Lord and Our Lady, and anything that I say that is erroneous is purely (1:04) my own fault. And now we will continue with The Dialogue of Saint Catherine of Siena.(1:10)
“However, no one should judge that he has greater perfection, because he performs great penances, (1:16) and gives himself in excess to the slaying of his body, than he who does less, inasmuch as (1:23) neither virtue nor merit consist therein; for otherwise he would be in an evil case, (1:31) who, from some legitimate reason, was unable to do actual penance. Merit consists in the (1:38) virtue of love alone, flavored with a light of true discretion, without which the soul is worth (1:45) nothing. And this love should be directed to Me endlessly, boundlessly, since I am the Supreme (1:52) and Eternal Truth. The soul can therefore place neither laws nor limits to her love for Me; (2:00) but her love for her neighbor, on the contrary, is ordered in certain conditions (the light of (2:06) discretion, which proceeds from love, as I have told thee) gives to the neighbor a conditioned (2:13) love, one that, being ordered aright, does not cause the injury of sin to self, in order to be (2:20) useful to others, for, if one single sin were committed to save the whole world from Hell, (2:26) or to obtain one great virtue, the motive would not be a rightly ordered or discreet love, (2:34) but rather indiscreet, for it is not lawful to perform even one act of great virtue and profit (2:41) to others by means of the guilt of sin. Holy discretion ordains that the soul should direct (2:48) all her powers to My service with a manly zeal, and, that she should love her neighbor with such (2:55) devotion that she would lay down a thousand times, if it were possible, the life of her body (3:01) for the salvation of souls, enduring pains and torments, so that her neighbor may have the life (3:08) of grace, and giving her temporal substance for the profit and relief of his body.
“This is the (3:15) supreme office of discretion which proceeds from charity. So thou seest how discreetly every soul, (3:23) who wishes for grace, should pay her debts, that is, should love Me with an infinite love (3:29) and without measure, but her neighbor with measure, with a restricted love, as I have said, (3:36) not doing herself the injury of sin in order to be useful to others. This is Saint Paul’s (3:43) counsel to thee when he says that charity ought to be concerned first with self, otherwise it will (3:50) never be of perfect utility to others. Because, when perfection is not in the soul, everything (3:57) which the soul does for itself and for others is imperfect. It would not, therefore, be just that (4:05) creatures, who are finite and created by Me, should be saved through offense done to Me, (4:12) who am the Infinite Good. The more serious the fault is in such a case, the less fruit (4:19) will the action produce; therefore in no way shouldest thou ever incur the guilt of sin. (4:27)
“And this true love knows well, because she carries with herself the light of holy discretion, (4:34) that light which dissipates all darkness, takes away ignorance, and is the condiment of every (4:40) instrument of virtue. Holy discretion is a prudence which cannot be cheated, a fortitude (4:48) which cannot be beaten, a perseverance from end to end, stretching from Heaven to earth, (4:55) that is, from knowledge of Me to knowledge of self, and from love of Me to love of others. (5:01) And the soul escapes dangers by her true humility, and, by her prudence, flies all the nets of the (5:09) world and its creatures, and, with unarmed hands, that is through much endurance, discomforts (5:16) the devil and the flesh with this sweet and glorious light; knowing, by it, her own fragility, (5:23) she renders to her weakness its due of hatred.
“Wherefore she has trampled on the world, (5:29) and placed it under the feet of her affection, despising it, and holding it vile, and thus (5:36) becoming lord of it, holding it as folly. And the men of the world cannot take her virtues (5:42) from such a soul, but all their persecutions increase her virtues and prove them, (5:49) which virtues have been at first conceived by the virtue of love, as has been said, (5:54) and then are proved on her neighbor, and bring forth their fruit on him. Thus have I shown thee, (6:01) that, if virtue were not visible and did not shine in the time of trial, it would not have (6:07) been truly conceived; for, I have already told thee, that perfect virtue cannot exist and give (6:14) fruit except by means of the neighbor, even as a woman, who has conceived a child, if she does not (6:21) bring it forth, so that it may appear before the eyes of men, deprives her husband of his fame of (6:27) paternity. It is the same with Me, who am the Spouse of the soul, if she do not produce the (6:34) child of virtue, in the love of her neighbor, showing her child to him who is in need, (6:40) both in general and in particular, as I have said to thee before, so I declare now, that, in truth, (6:47) she has not conceived virtue at all; and this is also true of the vices, all of which are committed (6:55) by means of the neighbor. (Reference 1)
So now we will go back through, and I will try to explain it a little bit (7:01) at a time.
“However, no one should judge that he has greater perfection, because he performs great penances, and gives himself in excess to the slaying of his body, than he who does less, inasmuch as neither virtue nor merit consist therein; for otherwise he would be in an evil case, who, from some legitimate reason, was unable to do actual penance.”
God says that one (7:32) should not judge themselves greater because they can do greater penances than another. For the (7:37) person that was unable to do penance, because of some disease or ailment, would be in serious (7:42) trouble. Their soul would be in great danger because they couldn’t do as great a penance as (7:47) another, and wouldn’t be able to gain any virtue or merit. This is not how things work. That is the (7:54) sin of pride.
“Merit consists in the virtue of love alone, flavored with a light of true discretion, without which the soul is worth nothing. And this love should be directed to Me endlessly, boundlessly, since I am the Supreme and Eternal Truth.”
God says that only love (8:17) mixed with discretion can merit the soul anything, but it has to be directed toward God, (8:23) at all times, without ceasing, and without rules or regulations or conditions.
“The soul can therefore place neither laws nor limits to her love for Me; but her love for her neighbor, on the contrary, is ordered in certain conditions (the light of discretion, which proceeds from love, as I have told thee) gives to the neighbor a conditioned love, one that, being ordered aright, does not cause the injury of sin to self, in order to be useful to others, for, if one single sin were committed to save the whole world from Hell, or to obtain one great virtue, the motive would not be a rightly ordered or discreet love, but rather indiscreet, for it is not lawful to perform even one act of great virtue and profit to others by means of the guilt of sin.”
God says there needs to be laws and limits on the love we have for our neighbor.(9:26) He says it is orderly to do so. God says discretion gives us this wisdom. (9:32) Consider the following example:
Let’s say that a man goes back in time to kill Eve before she can (9:40) eat the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The man that goes (9:45) back to stop her from committing this sin will try to justify this action by saying, (9:51) “This has saved the whole world from falling into hell, and all men and women from this point (9:55) forward can live in the garden of Eden for an eternity without having to die a death, (10:00) and all souls will never have to experience hell because there is no death,” except this does not (10:06) work. And, it is truly absurd, because the 10 commandments are written on every man’s heart, (10:13) even that of Adam and Eve, and their children. For when Cain slew Abel, God punished Cain for (10:19) this murder because it was wrong, and Cain knew it was, that’s why he tried to hide it. (10:25) And how did he know it was wrong other than it was written on his heart from his creation? Because (10:30) Adam and Eve had already committed the first sin, so Cain was not in the garden and was not walking (10:36) with God as Adam and Eve did. Anyway, this man would have committed the first sin instead of Eve (10:43) and still would not have saved the whole world from hell. He would have just committed a mortal (10:48) sin. He would not be gaining the virtue of justice either. God says it is not lawful to perform even (10:54) one act of great virtue, (in this case justice or even prudence,) to profit others by means of the (11:02) guilt of sin.
“Holy discretion ordains that the soul should direct all her powers to My service with a manly zeal, and, that she should love her neighbor with such devotion that she would lay down a thousand times, if it were possible, the life of her body for the salvation of souls, enduring pains and torments, so that her neighbor may have the life of grace, and giving her temporal substance for the profit and relief of his body.”
Holy Discretion would be (11:37) directing and focusing all your efforts to God’s service with manly zeal and perseverance. This (11:43) soul would love its neighbor with devotion, and it would lay down the life of its body for the (11:49) salvation of souls, no matter what tortures and extreme conditions the world could throw at this (11:55) sacrificial soul, so that its neighbor may have the life of grace, even giving their temporal or (12:01) (bodily) substance for the relief and profit of the body of the neighbor.
“This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do the things that I command you.” (John 15; 12-14.) (DRB)
Jesus Christ laid down his life without ever sinning to save the whole world from hell. (12:30) He is the ultimate example. We obviously have to choose to cooperate with God’s grace (12:36) and follow his commands that He gave us through Christ and Christ gave to His Church until He (12:42) returns. But this kind of sacrifice is exactly what He talks about, this kind of love, because (12:50) it is the same love Christ showed us, and if we are to look like Christ to God when we die, then (12:57) this is the love we are to show.
“This is the supreme office of discretion which proceeds from charity. So thou seest how discreetly every soul, who wishes for grace, should pay her debts, that is, should love Me with an infinite love and without measure, but her neighbor with measure, with a restricted love, as I have said, not doing herself the injury of sin in order to be useful to others. This is Saint Paul’s counsel to thee when he says that charity ought to be concerned first with self, otherwise it will never be of perfect utility to others. Because, when perfection is not in the soul, everything which the soul does for itself and for others is imperfect.”
(13:48) Every soul is to pay their debts this exact same way, by loving God without measure, and (13:54) infinitely, but with limits to its neighbor, being careful to not stain itself with sin, (14:00) to be of help to its neighbor. An example of this staining oneself with sin to be of help to your (14:08) neighbor would be like:
Killing the Emperor Nero in the 60’s AD, so your brothers and sisters who (14:16) were Catholic, (and being ruthlessly butchered by Nero for the greater population’s entertainment (14:21) in Rome) did not have to undergo this trial that they underwent. The beauty is that this trial (14:29) they underwent was for their great benefit and God’s greater glory, for they received the martyr’s (14:35) crown and God’s church continued growing. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.(14:42)
“It would not, therefore, be just that creatures, who are finite and created by Me, should be saved through offense done to Me, who am the Infinite Good. The more serious the fault is in such a case, the less fruit will the action produce; therefore in no way shouldest thou ever incur the guilt of sin.”
It would not be just that God’s creatures, He created, (15:13) be saved through offense done to God. That is diametrically opposed. We are finite and He is (15:21) infinite. He is all Goodness and Perfection and Perfectly Just. Therefore, to be anything less (15:28) than perfection does not produce sweet fruit. God says in no way should thou incur the guilt of sin. (15:36)
“Be you therefore perfect as also your Heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48) (DRB)
I challenge you (15:44) to go and read all of Matthew 5 in the Douay Rheims. Read it from the Douay Rheims. This (15:51) is the Sermon on the Mount.
“And this true love knows well, because she carries with herself the light of holy discretion, that light which dissipates all darkness, takes away ignorance, and is the condiment of every instrument of virtue. Holy discretion is a prudence which cannot be cheated, a fortitude which cannot be beaten, a perseverance from end to end, stretching from Heaven to earth, that is, from knowledge of Me to knowledge of self, and from love of Me to love of others. And the soul escapes dangers by her true humility, and, by her prudence, flies all the nets of the world and its creatures, and, with unarmed hands, that is through much endurance, discomforts the devil and the flesh with this sweet and glorious light; knowing, by it, her own fragility, she renders to her weakness its due of hatred.”
Here God tells us exactly what holy (16:57) discretion is and how it discomforts the devil himself. Go back and listen to exactly what (17:04) discretion is if you didn’t get it.
“Wherefore she has trampled on the world, and placed it under the feet of her affection, despising it, and holding it vile, and thus becoming lord of it, holding it as folly. And the men of the world cannot take her virtues from such a soul, but all their persecutions increase her virtues and prove them, which virtues have been at first conceived by the virtue of love, as has been said, and then are proved on her neighbor, and bring forth their fruit on him.”
God describes here how this holy discretion takes (17:44) one’s disordered love of the world, and turns it on its head, so as to make the love it has for (17:51) its neighbor and the world rightly ordered. He says that the soul who has it cannot have (17:56) their virtues stripped from them by the world, because all the persecutions the world puts this (18:02) soul through only proves the virtues this person has first obtained and made in the virtue of love, (18:08) and then proved on the soul’s neighbor, and in turn brings forth fruit on this soul’s neighbor.
“Thus have I shown thee, that, if virtue were not visible and did not shine in the time of trial, it would not have been truly conceived; for, I have already told thee, that perfect virtue cannot exist and give fruit except by means of the neighbor, even as a woman, who has conceived a child, if she does not bring it forth, so that it may appear before the eyes of men, deprives her husband of his fame of paternity. It is the same with Me, who am the Spouse of the soul, if she do not produce the child of virtue, in the love of her neighbor, showing her child to him who is in need, both in general and in particular, as I have said to thee before, so I declare now, that, in truth, she has not conceived virtue at all; and this is also true of the vices, all of which are committed by means of the neighbor.”
God says that virtues (19:18) shine in the time of trial, and this happens by means of our neighbor. God uses the example of (19:24) a woman not bringing forth the child in her womb, and robbing her husband of the fame of paternity, (19:30) by aborting the child that has been conceived. God is the Spouse of our soul, and therefore expects us (19:37) to produce the child of virtue to Him by loving our neighbor rightly, and showing Him that we (19:43) love our neighbor by our actions, because God is desirous of this. If we do not do this, (19:50) we have not conceived virtue at all.
To drive home one more example about how one (19:56) cannot commit a sin to gain a good out of it, consider the following:
Let’s say a homeless (20:03) person were to come up to you and ask for clothing or a jacket. Let’s say this homeless (20:08) person was the opposite gender than you. You decide to give them your spouse’s clothing or (20:14) jacket and decide to tell your spouse later, or just not say anything, or to even go buy another (20:21) one, hopefully before they notice. This action that you have done in trying to be kind and (20:27) charitable to the homeless person, and to clothe the naked, is not actually meritorious because you (20:33) committed the sin of stealing, and you cannot commit a sin in order that a greater good come (20:39) out of it. It is no virtue at all. The right thing would have been to ask your spouse if they would (20:45) be willing to make that sacrifice and let them decide. Don’t let your own self-love get in the (20:51) way of God letting someone prove their virtue to Him, on their neighbor. There is nothing wrong (20:57) with giving away your own possessions, but you may not give away someone else’s. This applies (21:03) in every case!
On the next episode, we will be hearing what Saint Catherine says to God (21:10) after hearing all of this so far.
That will end our episode for today. If you have any questions (21:16) or comments, you can find my email in the contact button below. If you need a Catholic priest, (21:23) please reach out to me and I will help you find one. And now we will end in prayer.
In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Ave Maria, gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui Jesus
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in ora mortis nostrae. Amen.
In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Thank you for listening and I will see you on the next episode.
References
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