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(0:00) Hello and welcome to the Catholic Torch Podcast, episode 13. We’ll start out with prayer. (0:07)
We’ll be praying The Memorare.
In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of Virgins and Mother. To thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy, hear and answer me. Amen.
In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
(0:46) Today’s episode is brought to you by Juan’s Mobile Welding LLC. Thank you for your continued support, (0:53) my dear friend.
As always, anything that I say that is true and good and beautiful belongs to (1:00) the honor and glory of our Lord and our Lady. And anything that I say that is erroneous is purely my (1:06) own fault.
And now we will continue with The Dialogue of St. Catherine of Siena.
“These are (1:12) the fruits and the works which I seek from the soul, the proving, namely, of virtue in the time (1:19) of need. And yet some time ago, if thou remember, when thou wert desirous of doing great penance for (1:26) My sake, asking, ‘What can I do to endure suffering for Thee, O Lord?’ I replied to thee, speaking in (1:34) thy mind, ‘I take delight in few words and many works.’ I wished to show thee that he who merely (1:42) calls on me with the sound of words, saying: ‘Lord, Lord, I would do something for Thee,’ and he, who (1:50) desires for My sake to mortify his body with many penances, and not his own will, did not give Me (1:57) much pleasure; but that I desired the manifold works of manly endurance with patience, together (2:04) with the other virtues, which I have mentioned to thee above, intrinsic to the soul, all of which (2:10) must be in activity in order to obtain fruits worthy of grace. All other works, founded on any (2:17) other principle than this, I judge to be a mere calling with words, because they are finite works, (2:23) and I, who am Infinite, seek infinite works, that is an infinite perfection of love.
“I wish therefore (2:31) that the works of penance, and of other corporal exercises, should be observed merely as means, (2:38) and not as the fundamental affection of the soul. For, if the principal affection of the soul were (2:44) placed in penance, I should receive a finite thing like a word, which, when it has issued from the (2:51) mouth, is no more, unless it have issued with affection of the soul, which conceives and brings (2:58) forth virtue in truth; that is, unless the finite operation, which I have called a word, should be (3:06) joined with the affection or love, in which case it would be grateful and pleasant to Me. (3:12) And this is because such a work would not be alone, but accompanied by true discretion, (3:18) using corporal works as means, and not as the principal foundation; for it would not be becoming (3:25) that the principal foundation should be placed in penance only, or in any exterior corporal act, (3:32) such works being finite, since they are done in finite time, and also because it is often (3:39) profitable that the creature omit them, and even that she be made to do so.
“Wherefore, when the (3:46) soul omits them through necessity, being unable through various circumstances to complete an action (3:53) which she has begun, or, as may frequently happen, through obedience at the order of her director, (3:59) it is well; since, if she continued then to do them, she not only would receive no merit, (4:06) but would offend Me; thus thou seest that they are merely finite. She ought, therefore, (4:13) to adopt them as a means, and not as an end. For if she takes them as an end she will be obliged, (4:21) some time or other, to leave them, and will then remain empty. This My trumpeter the glorious Paul (4:28) taught you when he said in his Epistle that you should mortify the body and destroy self-will, (4:34) knowing, that is to say, how to keep the rein on the body, macerating the flesh whenever it (4:41) should wish to combat the spirit, but the will should be dead and annihilated in everything, (4:47) and subject to My Will, and this slaying of the will is that due which, as I told thee, (4:54) the virtue of discretion renders to the soul, that is to say, hatred and disgust of her own (5:00) offenses and sensuality, which are acquired by self-knowledge. This is the knife which slays (5:06) and cuts off all self-love founded in self-will. These then are they who give Me not only words (5:13) but manifold works, and in these I take delight. And then I said that I desired few words, (5:19) and many actions; by the use of the word ‘many’ I assign no particular number to thee, (5:26) because the affection of the soul, founded in love, which gives life to all the virtues and (5:31) good works, should increase infinitely, and yet I do not, by this, exclude words, I merely said that (5:39) I wished few of them, showing thee that every actual operation, as such, was finite, and therefore (5:46) I called them of little account; but they please Me when they are performed as the instruments of (5:52) virtue, and not as a principal end in themselves.” (Reference 1)
Now we will go back through, and I will try to (5:58) explain it a few lines at a time.
“These are the fruits and the works which I seek from the soul, the proving, namely, of virtue in the time of need. And yet some time ago, if thou remember, when thou wert desirous of doing great penance for My sake, asking, ‘What can I do to endure suffering for Thee, O Lord?’ I replied to thee, speaking in thy mind, ‘I take delight in few words and many works.’”
God says here that when Catherine asked God, what she could do (6:31) to endure suffering for Him, He replied that He is the most delighted in the soul who performs many (6:37) works, and says little.
“I wished to show thee that he who merely calls on me with the sound of words, saying: ‘Lord, Lord, I would do something for Thee,’ and he, who desires for My sake to mortify his body with many penances, and not his own will, did not give Me much pleasure; but that I desired the manifold works of manly endurance with patience, together with the other virtues, which I have mentioned to thee above, intrinsic to the soul, all of which must be in activity in order to obtain fruits worthy of grace.”
Here God says, he who says, ‘Lord, Lord, I want to do something for (7:19) you.’ God says this soul desires for God’s sake to mortify his flesh with penances, but did not do (7:26) these penances as an act of love, out of its own will. This does not please God. God says what does (7:33) please Him here though. He says that He desires manifest works of manly endurance with patience, (7:40) joined together with the other virtues that are intrinsic to the soul. Remember we have been (7:46) talking about those since episode eight till now. To do a brief recap, they include Faith, Hope, (7:54) Charity, Prudence, Justice, Fortitude, and Temperance. All of these must be in activity, (8:00) (or being used rightly), to obtain fruits worthy of God gifting us grace.
“All other works, founded on any other principle than this, I judge to be a mere calling with words, because they are finite works, and I, who am Infinite, seek infinite works, that is an infinite perfection of love.”
God says that all other works that are not ordered this way by (8:29) practicing the virtues with manly endurance and patience are only the calling of mere words, and (8:36) therefore count for only a work of love with an end, and not a work of love without an end. It’s (8:43) just like the verse,
“Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7, 21-23) (DRB)
God is infinite, (9:17) and asks for infinite works. These virtuous acts of love done for thy neighbor out of love for God, (9:24) to do the Father’s will, who is in heaven, are true acts of love done for His honor and glory and (9:30) praise. If these actions are done to do our own human will to fulfill a purely human end, are (9:38) finite, and the praise and honor and glory that is rightly due to God is not pleasing to God, because (9:44) the soul that has done this has pridefully tried to rob God of those things that are rightly only (9:50) God’s. For example, it would be like if a married man did something nice for his wife, knowing that (9:56) he was going to get a good out of the good that he performed. This isn’t really an act of love, (10:02) but of selfishness. Now if this same married man does an act of sacrifice for his wife by dying to (10:09) his own self-will, and does something nice for his wife that he does not like doing or doesn’t (10:15) necessarily want to do, and doesn’t expect anything in return from his wife for this (10:20) sacrifice, then he has performed an act of love out of real virtue. (Even if the wife does give him (10:27) love back by doing the same, and it would still be an act of real love because of the virtue that (10:34) was united to the action.)
“I wish therefore that the works of penance, and of other corporal exercises, should be observed merely as means, and not as the fundamental affection of the soul.”
God says that penances and other corporal works ought to be done only for means (10:55) of gaining more virtue, and not used as a basis for the affection of the soul.
“For, if the principal affection of the soul were placed in penance, I should receive a finite thing like a word, which, when it has issued from the mouth, is no more, unless it have issued with affection of the soul, which conceives and brings forth virtue in truth; that is, unless the finite operation, which I have called a word, should be joined with the affection or love, in which case it would be grateful and pleasant to Me. And this is because such a work would not be alone, but accompanied by true discretion, using corporal works as means, and not as the principal foundation; for it would not be becoming that the principal foundation should be placed in penance only, or in any exterior corporal act, such works being finite, since they are done in finite time, and also because it is often profitable that the creature omit them, and even that she be made to do so.”
Here God says, that unless these works and penances be united to love of God as (12:06) their foundation, and that their end be in truth, that these words and works are only finite, (12:14) much like the example of the husband and wife I gave earlier, where the husband does something, (12:19) expecting something in return. God continues on and says that to place the most importance (12:25) on penance, or another corporal act, is not becoming of one who loves Him, because they (12:31) are done with a finite ending. And it is even better if the soul omit them, and even be made (12:37) to omit them. Yes, God said be made to omit them. He gave someone the authority on earth to govern (12:44) us toward the sanctification of our souls.
“Wherefore, when the soul omits them through necessity, being unable through various circumstances to complete an action which she has begun, or, as may frequently happen, through obedience at the order of her director, it is well; since, if she continued then to do them, she not only would receive no merit, but would offend Me; thus thou seest that they are merely finite.”
(13:17) God says here that the soul who through necessity omits these penances and corporal acts, (13:24) even if the soul has begun them, due to various circumstances, is unable to accomplish these acts, (13:30) or if this soul is ordered by its director to cease these acts, and out of obedience the soul (13:36) stops them, God says that soul does well! For if this soul did not cease these acts, and disobeyed, (13:44) or just destroyed themselves to finish the corporal act, that would displease God much, (13:49) offending him, and the act would receive no merit.
Now a side note for a minute. God said a director. (13:58) I said earlier that Jesus before his passion gave authority to someone on earth to govern us to (14:04) return us back to God in hopefully a holier state if we cooperate. That was Saint Peter, (14:10) upon whom Christ founded His Church, the Catholic Church. The Gospel says this: (14:17) (this is what Jesus Christ says),
“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” (Matthew 16, 18-19) (DRB)
This shows us that if we do not listen to the (14:50) proper authority, the Church Christ founded on Saint Peter, the Catholic Church, and the rightful (14:56) leader of that Church, the Pope, since Peter was the first vicar, (or placeholder of Christ,) (15:02) till his return at the final judgment, that we will offend God. If we are to listen to our (15:09) director, to cease a corporal work or penance because of some legitimate reason, then we are (15:15) obliged to do so; since Christ left someone in authority over us while we are on earth. (15:21) This pleases Him. If we disobey to a legitimate order, then we offend God.
“She ought, therefore, to adopt them as a means, and not as an end. For if she takes them as an end she will be obliged, some time or other, to leave them, and will then remain empty. This My trumpeter the glorious Paul taught you when he said in his Epistle that you should mortify the body and destroy self-will, knowing, that is to say, how to keep the rein on the body, macerating the flesh whenever it should wish to combat the spirit, but the will should be dead and annihilated in everything, and subject to My Will, and this slaying of the will is that due which, as I told thee, the virtue of discretion renders to the soul, that is to say, hatred and disgust of her own offenses and sensuality, which are acquired by self-knowledge.”
The soul ought to adopt penances and corporal works as a means to acquire virtue, (16:28) and not an end for salvation and holiness. For if the soul leaves them because of health, (16:33) or some other infirmity, it would leave the soul empty, if these were done as an end.(16:39) Paul said to use them to mortify and macerate the flesh, when it is warring against the spirit. (16:45)
The Douay-Rheims says,
“Watch ye, and pray that ye enter not into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh weak.” (Matthew 26, 41) (DRB)
Christ spoke these words to His apostles in the (17:00) Garden of Gethsemane, in which He was undergoing His agony. We should be dead to all our own will, (17:07) and be subject to God’s will. That is pleasing to Him. The virtue of discretion, (or Prudence) (17:13) helps us to slay our own will. God says it is the due that prudence pays to our soul, (17:20) through hatred and disgust of our own offenses and sensuality, which we acquired knowledge of, by (17:27) that self-knowledge we have been continually talking about.
“This is the knife which slays and cuts off all self-love founded in self-will. These then are they who give Me not only words but manifold works, and in these I take delight.”
God says that this prudence (17:49) and hatred and disgust of our offenses and sensuality we have committed against an All (17:56) Perfect and All Loving God, is the weapon, the knife, (the knife of self-hatred), we are to use (18:03) to slay our own self-love and self-will. These are the souls God takes delight in. The ones who (18:10) use the weapons he has equipped us with to come to a deeper love of Him and to slay our own wills, (18:16) to do only His will.
“And then I said that I desired few words, and many actions; by the use of the word ‘many’ I assign no particular number to thee, because the affection of the soul, founded in love, which gives life to all the virtues and good works, should increase infinitely, and yet I do not, by this, exclude words, I merely said that I wished few of them, showing thee that every actual operation, as such, was finite, and therefore I called them of little account; but they please Me when they are performed as the instruments of virtue, and not as a principal end in themselves.”
God now explains that these actions when (19:04) done, cannot be done as an end, but must be done as a means united to virtue and love, and then (19:12) these words actually have merit and meaning of infinite value, instead of a finite nothing to (19:18) God.
On the next episode, we will discuss further how God desires to truly be loved, (19:25) and the pitfalls that await the soul and how to overcome them.
That will end our episode for (19:30) today. If you have any questions or comments, you can find my email in the contact button below. (19:37) If you need a Catholic priest, please reach out to me and I will help you find one.
(19:42) And now we will end in prayer.
In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Ave Maria, gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui Jesus
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in ora mortis nostrae. Amen.
In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
(20:10) Thank you for listening and I will see you on the next episode.
Reference 1
The Catholic Torch 